Consider the role of women in the Odyssey. What have you learned about how "Homer's" society would have viewed women?
What are you learning about Penelope in Book XXI?
In what ways are characters loyal or disloyal to Odysseus?
Predict what you think will happen in Book XXII.
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In the beginning of this book, P is getting ready to let the suitors try their luck at shooting the arrow through the 12 loop holes. T even tries to do so but he cannot do it. I am starting to think less of P. She just very suddenly let go of O when he was right there! Even though she didn't know about it...but still, I just can't believe how suddenly she changed her mind after waiting so long for O. While all this is taking place, O reveals to E who he really is. He uses the scar on his foot for proof. He asks that E and his friend Phil. to fight by his side against the suitors. O returns back to P's house where the suitors are still trying to earn P's hand in marriage. O still looks like a beggar, and asks if he can give it a try. None of the suitors want to let him cry. I think they are intimmidated by O. One of the suitors makes fun of O and says that he is drunk and that is why he thinks he can do this. T steps up and stops all the commotion. He gives the bow to O. We can all guess what happens, O strings the bow through all the loop holes! O is either loved or hated. People are either loyal of disloyal to him. Like the suitors would be very disloyal. But O's nanny, T, and E as very loyal to him. I think P is disloyal to O now. Women in Homer's society are kind of like a prize. They are kind of wanted for their sex and how they look I believe.
ReplyDeleteI think women in this book aren't very apparent unless it is a godess. The only other females that you hear a lot about are P and her Nanny lady. Some of the men in the town think that they P should let her dad choose who she is going to marry anyways. Also all of the suitors seemed to just take advantage of all of her wealth so i don't think women had a very good part in sociaty.
ReplyDeleteP is seeming to let go of O when he is now right in front of her. She is still curious about him from when she was asking who she thought was the stranger about him, but i think she is tired of waiting and just wants to get the whole suiting prosses over with because she is getting tired of all the men in her home.
T was always loyal to O even though he didn't know him because he was his father. Also E was loyal and E's friend Phil was loyal because they were going to fight with him against the suitors. Also some of the gods were loyal to O like Calypso because even though she wanted him to stay with her she let him go. and since she was a godess she had the power to keep him with her.
I think there will be a fight in the next book with the suiters against o and his men. I also think that people are going to start figuring out that it is O and not a random guy from the war.
I believe that in this book most of the women are shown in a very emotional and sensitive light. After all Pen waited years upon years for Od to return because she was so emotionaly tied to him in her heart. Even the two Goddesses that Od was with throughout his travels showed emotions. They were both willing to give Od anything he wanted if he was just willing to stay with them. Then there is Athena who is obviously very sensitive. She through herself into this situation because she didn't want a family to get ripped apart because she knew it would kill all of them inside. This shows how deeply she cares for all of them. I think Pen has finally just become too impatient which is why she finally decided to give in to the suitors. I do not think less of her because the likelyhood that someone would wait near 20 years for a man she thinks is dead..well not many people would do that. Eumaeus and Philotius are loyal to Od because he reveals his true identity to them using the scar as proof. They agree to fight side by side with him which is an act of loyalty. Since Od shot the arrow through all 12 loops I have a very strong feeling there will be a battle in the next book, because the suitors will not be happy at all that they waited for so long to get shown up by a simple begger (or so they think)...
ReplyDeletei dont think that the women are important in this story. the only girls that you hear about are his mom and his nanny. women don't really seem to get a choice. like how penelope has to get married. i think that they only really care about the godesses.
ReplyDeleteWe are leaning that she is finally starting to give up on O. he is right there she just doesn't relize it. i don't blame her or think that she is a bad person because she waited 20 years for someone who everybody told her was dead. i think that she is strong for waiting that long.
i think that all the suitors are very disloyal to him. even if they think he is dead they are in his land and taking stuff from him. and then they make fun of him before he does the chalange even though they don't know its him.
I think that Penelope, T, and eurcila are loyal to him. they never stoped beliving in him.
i think that in the next book there will be a fight because the suitors have been there for years trying to win penelope and now a stranger just walks in and wins.
Women havent really played a huge role in this book. Really the only women we hear about in the book are P and P's Nanny women dont play a big role they dont really have a choice in what happends. P just has to get married she is forced to by the gods and the suitors. P isnt treated well at all as a women. She gets treated badly and taken avantage of but the suitors. They just want to marry her and become wealthy! P is really letting O go even tho he is there for her to take as hers and marry. She has pretty much given up on him. I dont know how she can just change what she believes of O just like that. He right there even tho she may not just know it yet but still she just changed her mind so quick and didnt even rethink it one bit. She should have stayed loyal like she was going to in the beginning. I believe in the next book something will go down like a fight or something because the suitors have been there for so long and now O is back and it is his house still after all.
ReplyDeleteThis book starts off with the suitors all trying to shoot a bow and who ever gets the arrow through a line of twelve axes. T trys to do it but he is unsuccesful. I dont like the fact that P is out of no where letting go the thought of O still being alive. when the shooting and everythin was going on O showed and proved himself by showing him a scar that was on his foot i think. I thought that was pretty cool that a friend would remember something like that and be able to recognize him. O asks for his old friends E and Phil to fight off all of the suitors with him and they agree to help out an old friend. When O goes back he asks if he could have a try but the suitors dont allow him to try becasue they want P all to themselves. I think that maybe they are a little bit intimidated by O and are afraid that they will get it before they do. When O finally does get a chance of course he makes it through all the holes on his first try and all of the suitors are very upset.
ReplyDeleteIn the beggining of book 21 All the suitors are trying to string the bow then shoot it threw the axes. All of them fail even T. But outside the room O and his to loyal friends that he showed his scars to. He revealed to E and P who he really was because of the scar on his foot. He went in their and asked the suitors if he could try to do it and they all made fun of him, called him a drunk. But they were all really intimidated that he was going to do that. He ended up stringing it and putting it threw all of the axe holes. I believe that women are treated bad in this book because they are all taking advantage by the gods and the men.I think in the next book O is gonna open a can of whoop butt and kill all of the suitors and win back P and be married agian after he was gone for about 20 years.
ReplyDeleteThe ladies in the book were treated pretty bad expiceilly P she had to deal with the Suitors who trashed her house and broke things and ate all of her food. I think that P shoud of been able to decide who she had in her house even though that O wasnt their for 20 years. O tells them who they really are and he makes it threw all of the holes. The Suitors make fun of him and call him names. I think that O and P will get married again and live happly ever after
ReplyDeleteWoman in these books are very objectified and unimportant. Odysseus may say he longs to see his wife again, but that doesn't stop him from ultimately pleasing himself by sleeping with various other female types. The only woman portrayed as important at all is Penelope and that is just because of her link to wealth. Basically, Homer's society viewed women as links to power and ways to please oneself when convenient.
ReplyDeletePenelope is a very strong woman who loves her husband and is committed to him. In book 21, she begins to seemingly lose commitment. Obviously she has been through a lot, but it is sad, especially when she is at this critical point where her son is trying to deal with the suitors. Even if she has just reason to give up faith in his return, she at least needs to stay strong for Telemachus' sake.
Almost all of the characters are dedicated to Odysseus. Penelope is very devoted, but even more, Telemachus is probably the most devoted. He continues to believe that his father will return, even when no one else does, and goes so far as to look after him. Eurycleia and the swineherd probably are also pretty devoted to him. On the other hand, the suitors are obviously disloyal to him, especially the suitors who are native to Ithica. Also, Odysseus' mother is a bit disloyal as she died in grief from her son and commits suicide. Other than the suitors, most every character is loyal to him besides the goddesses and gods who are using him for personal gain, especially Calypso.
In book XXII, I believe that Odysseus is going to show up, string the bow, shoot it through the holes, and then absolutely slaughter the suitors left and right, showing absolutely no mercy. After that, he will probably show himself to his wife and they will be a happy couple again. :)
Unless women held some sort of power, such as queens or goddesses, they were mainly viewed as maids, housewives, bearers of children...etc. In the story, some maids of Penelope were viewed as sluts because they slept with the suitors and were later executed for it. Although the maids did Penelope and Odysseus wrong for betraying them, killing them is kind of extreme. If a woman of that time period did anything that was considered "indecent" during that time, she was mistreated, humiliated, used, put to death...etc. Women of this time really had to watch their actions. Penelope wants to be done suffering over Odysseus. She tells the stranger (beggar) to go ahead and take a shot with the bow and arrow, what could it hurt?
ReplyDeleteSome of the maids are disloyal to Odysseus by sleeping with the icky suitors. Melanthius tells the suitors where Odysseus and Telemachus hid all the weapons, so the suitors can get ahold of them and use them.
I predict that Odysseus and Telemachus will begin to battle the suitors. They will be victorious and Odysseus will reveal himself to his wife, finally.
I dont think that homer makes it a point to make women important in his stories unless there special or a type of god. During the whole book O talks about how much he wants to get back to his wife but it doesnt stop him from sleeping with all those other women. When P is at home and has been waiting for him the entire time. The women arent treated good at all. For example when they were trying to shoot the bow an arrow through the axes and if any of them did it they automatically got to marry P. That isnt fair to her because she should be able to marry who she wanted and if she didnt want to marry any of them she shouldn't have to.
ReplyDeleteI predict that O and T will work as a team to kill all the remaining suitors and after they do that O will show him who he really is.
I agree with Lottie that the women in the book aren't very important unless they are a godess. P is still faithful to O. She sets up a test for the suitors. They have to string O's bow and shoot an arrow. All the suitors try, even T, and all fail. O, disguised as a beggar, tries and succeeds. While he is doing this his loyal men are locking up the house and courtyard so none of the suitors can escape. O and T are going to get weapons and take on the suitors.
ReplyDeleteWomen arent very powerful or important unless they are a goddess. So it is the same as women in early US history. Women were treated like property they just cooked cleaned and took orders from the men. P is very faithful and smart. After all these years she still loves O and thinks he is still alive and coming back for her. She is smart for setting up the competitons and for undoing what she does on the shroud. I think O and T are going to kill all of the suitors.
ReplyDeleteIn what ways are characters loyal or disloyal to Odysseus?
Predict what you think will happen in Book XXII.
Characters are loyal because they still think and believe he is alive.
ReplyDeleteThe main thing about women in the Odyssey is that the women are very faithful. Penelope, for instance, waited for Odysseus for 21 years. She did not sleep with other men or even think about it. She was completely loyal to Odysseus. Odysseus on the other hand, was not faithful. He could have been used as an example also, for men in that book. He for the most part sleeps around with other women and does not care. It is as if men have that right and women do not.
ReplyDeleteIn book 21 you see that Penelope is losing her faith in her husbands return. She has always been a strong and committed wife, but after all the trials and struggles she has been through she has had enough. What she does not know is that Odysseus is right in front of her face. She also is saying that she does not want to show any respect or put any effort into being pleasant or nice to strangers because of the suitors. The suitors have treated her so badly (in that the way they present themselves and what they have done to her home and life) that she does not want to deal with them or any other stranger because of it.
Many of Odysseus' people were very faithful to him. One being Eurycleia, she did not think badly of Odysseus when he was gone. She was always faithful and did what he would have wanted her to. She also turned in those who were not faithful to him when he asked her. A few of the servants he had turned against him. One turned in Penelope when she tried to buy herself time so she would not have to marry one of the suitors. She told the suitors she would marry one of them when she finished (weaving) Laertes' shroud, but each night she would undo the work she did on it each day. The servant told the suitors and that plan failed for her because of it.
I already read 22, but even if I had not I would still predict that the suitors would be killed.
I think that according to Homer, women, for the most part, and insignificant. Unless they are a goddess, that is. The only women we really read about are Penelope and her nurse. Her nurse is there strictly to help and Penelope plays a main role as O's wife and T's mom. Beings there aren't many women and the only important one being Penelope, it makes me think that Homer feels women are just good for doing what others tell them to do.
ReplyDeleteIn this book, Penelope has the suitors shoot an arrow through hoops. This makes me feel as if she has given up hope that O will come back home. She even goes to the extreme as to have the beggar shoot the arrow,thinking he would miss. However, I almost feel like maybe Penelope knew deep down and could sense that that was O, that's why she let him shoot the arrow.
I think that for the most part, everybody in this book is very loyal. Except for the suitors. Once O left, they come in and try to steal Penelope and get her riches.
In book 22,I'm assuming all of the suitors will die. Die a gruesome death.
I believe women were important if they had money or power. The only thing they were needed for was children and housework.
ReplyDeleteIn Book XXI I can see that Penelope is beginning to believe that Odysseus will not come back. She has waited so long and the suitors have been treating her so bad that she is giving up.
The nurse has been loyal to Odysseus. She know who this stranger is..its Odysses but she hasnt said anything to anyone.
Already read Book XXII.
I think that men and the world looked at women for children and house work. the only way for them to be looked at different is for them to be a goddess or have money and power.
ReplyDeleteand i book XXI I can tell Penelope is giving up on Odysseus coming back home.
and the nurse has been great to Odysseus. she knows that Odysseus is the Stranger but hasn't said anything.
Woman in this book doesn't have a lot of say unless they are a goddess. just like when P says that she thinks the begger(odysseus) should be able to shoot the bow, T right away stops her from talking and make her go back to her household duties. its like the woman have no say at all. They are just talked down to.
ReplyDeleteI think that P is giving up on O coming back. She is just about ready to give into the suitors. She doesn't want to but i think shes tired of waiting for her husband to come back.
I think that the charactors are very loyal to O because four people know who he is T, Euryciea, Eumaeus, and Philoetius; they have not told P about it. They listen to O, when he says not to tell anyone. I think that they care about him so much they are so happy when they see them and they kiss him because there so happy.
Penelope has finally lost all hope really. She just wants to get married and carry on with her life, and doesnt care if odysseus is alive or not. Odysseus' helpers stay loyal to him since he was such a good leader but the suitors have absolutely no respect for him, all they want is his wife, fame, and his fortune. i believe odysseus will reveal himself and take his home back from the suitors.
ReplyDeleteP does not want to marry any of the suitors. she is doing everything she can. she is stalling and buying time just to not marry one of them. she told them that she will marry when she is done weaving. everyday she unravels what she weaved.
ReplyDeleteP is the one who is being totally and completely loyal to O. she had been waiting for him ever since he left. she has not been with any other men or even thought about being with anyother men. but O on the other hand has not been faitful. he slept around alot and didnt really care what anyone else thought, he just did it.
It seems as if women are objectified, and seemed unimportant. It seems as if while men are allowed to 'sleep around' so to speak women are expected to be faithful 100%. There is also the part of the book where Calypso protests against Zeus' order to release Odysseus, saying that it isn't fair that male gods get to have mortal lovers while female gods have to be lonely. this also makes it seem like women are not seen as equal to men. They seem to be objects, valued only when it is convenient.
ReplyDeleteIn book 21 Penelope is beginning to lose her strength and hope that Odysseus will keep his promise and return. She has waited so long that her faith is wearing thin, and even says that she will marry anyone who can string odysseus' bow and shoot an arrow through 12 axes.
I think that amny characters (saving the suiters) are very loyal to odysseus. Emmaues heaps praises upon his former master, and everyone seems to be longing for him to come home. It seems like he was very good to all his people, so I understand why they are faithful.
so women pretty much rule the world.. lol
ReplyDeleteno... men have control over what women do when they are married, but as for the suitors... they have to impress her first in order to even get a chance to be with her....
Odysseus had many faithful servants (some dishonored them)and Penelope never left his side and never went a day with out wishing he were home and that's real faith.
When you think about the time period women where not superior to anyone except maybe children. Women didn't have a choice in doing much and they were always told what to do, like who they would marry and when. Penelope is a smart women and the guys in the book don't realize that. She has put up with suitors for over 10 years and she still believes that her husband is still out there alive. Like Odysseus told Calypso Penelope might not be prettier but she is a lot smarter. Most people are loyal to Odysseus. His son, the herders, Penelope, and Odysseus' nurse. Some are not loyal; they give the suitors weapons and some of the maids sleep with the suitors. I think that there will be a fight with Odysseus and the suitors and Odysseus will finally reveal who he is. He will then be reunited with Penelope and everyone will live happily ever after!! :)
ReplyDeleteThe women in the book are nothing. They are protrayed as just objects for men. Cook and clean and be loving to their husband and kids. I though P was a great woman. A woman who stuck by her man and her son. But that isn't happening in Book 21. She is giving up. Having a contest for the suitors. And whoever can shoot the arrow through twelve axes will win her hand in marraige. She doesn't want to try anymore. Yes, her husband has been gone for a long time, but isn't that what marriage is about? Through great time and poor? They are so many people that are loyal and disloyal to O. You have the suitors and the maids that hate him and don't want him to be alive. Obvisouly they are disloyal. But then you have the good people. The people that truly care for him and want him to be in good care. His son, E, Eurycleia, are all good examples of loyal people. P is kind of both. She wants to believe that O is coming back. But he has been gone for so long that she doesn't know what to do anymore. Women are viewed only as sex objects. They aren't important for anything else, but that.
ReplyDeleteThe women in this book are unimportant and always gets pushed aside. They are just meant to be the workers for the men. But back then no one was really important other than the men. They had the domination. Pen. is a very strong willed women but no one realized it. She had to put up with all the suitors when she still believes that her husband is alive so she stays loyal to him. O even says that P might not be prettier than all the other girls he's been with, but she is a lot smarter. I think when O gets back to his palace, he will fight the suitors and get his dear P back!
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