Book IX is Odysseus' recounting of his conflict with the one-eyed Cyclops, Polyphemus. In Book X, Odysseus relates the story of the death of his men and his encounter with the goddess, Circe. Include both books in your responses to the following questions. Post your responses so everyone can read what you think.
In your opinion, does Odysseus show he is a good and revered leader in this story? Support your ideas with specific examples from both books.
Aristotle defines "hamartia" as a "fatal flaw" (see the Tragic Man in your purple packet). According to Aristotle, the most common tragic flaw is "supreme pride" ("hubris"). What is the tragic flaw (or flaws)of Odysseus, in your opinion? Support this with specific examples from the Mandelbaum translation.
Why is it significant that Zeus rejects the sacrifice of the best ram by Odysseus at the end of Book IX? (Consider the events of Book X)
Note the frequent mention of the giving or the confiscating of goods and riches. Why do you think this is significant?
Post answers to these questions on your notes page. Be sure to refer to the pretest focus as you think about the stories you are reading. It is a VERY good idea to mark page numbers for quotations that you will need to support your answers in the test.
Continue to keep a list of examples that support the "Key Features of Myth."
Continue to keep a list of heroic qualities for both Odysseus and Telemachus. Read the "Homeric Hero" excerpt in your notes packet. Begin thinking about the comparison or contrast between your idea of a hero and the Homeric hero.
Continue to keep a list of themes.
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ReplyDeleteI think O is a good leader, but he looks out for himself first. He thought up a plan to escape the cyclop's cave. When the cyclops was out tending to his sheep, O and his men sharpened a stake out of wood and put it in the coals of the fire. When the cyclops came back in to his cave, O gave him good-tasting wine and the cyclops kept asking for more. The cyclops got drunk from the wine and passed out on the ground. O and his men took the stake out of the coals and drilled it into the cyclops's only eye. The stake blinded it. Next O tied his men to the bottom of a sheep and then covered each side with another one so the men were hidden. O found the largest ram and held on to it. In the morning the cyclops opened up the cave door and let out his sheep. He thought O and his men had gotten away the night before. When the ram O was under got into the clear he let go and went and untied his men. They ran back to the ship with the sheep and the ram and left. While they were at sea O taunted the cyclops. At first I didn't think O was a very caring leader because 4 or 5 of his men were eaten by the cyclops and he did nothing about it, but he couldn't because the cyclops was so tall and strong. Another example of O being a good leader is when he went and saved 20 men who had been turned into hogs when they got to Circe's home. He met Hermes who gave O an herb that made him impervious to Circe's spell. She turned the hogs back to men and she let them stay there for 1 year.
ReplyDeleteIt is significant that Zeus rejected O's sacrifice because O wanted to sacrifice the ram, but the ram was stolen from the cyclops. The cyclops prayed to Poseidon to bring bad weather on O's return home, because he had tricked the cyclops and it had been warned of a man named Odesseus. The mention of giving and taking goods is significant because it is a custom where O is from to receive a gift when a stranger comes to someone's home and stays there. Taking goods is significant because O takes sheep from the cyclops and the cyclops prays to Poseidon.
9 AND 10
ReplyDeleteI think that O is a good leader because when the cyclops have them trapped in the cave he devoleps a plan to help them escape the cave from the cyclops. What O thinks of is burning the end of stick/pole and getting the cyclops drunk and right before he falls asleep because of intoxication he asks O his name and he replys "Nobody" and than the cyclops falls asleep and thats when O and his people get hot end of the pole and jab his eye with it so when the cyclops people come they ask who did it to him and he said "nobody" so now they have no clue that O did this to him. O stole the sheep from Cyclops to get out of the cave. So cyclops prayed to Posiden to bring bad weather on O while he goes out to see on his ship.
I don't think that Odysseus is a good leader. He is good at keeping himself safe but not his men. He wants to become friends with the Cyclops and get supplies for the rest of his trip. His men don't think it is a good idea but he is there leader so they follow his directions. Six of them end up getting killed. Odysseus is smart and gets them out of there by blinding the Cyclops but then he gets cocky and tells the Cyclops who he is. Later he sends his men to check out the island of Circe and they get turned into pigs.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus isn't a very good leader. He is a good leader for himself but not for others. When the Cyclops was sleeping, O and his men came up with an idea to escape from the cave. They sharpened a stick and put it in the burning coals, when the Cyclops awoke they gave him very good tasting wine. He kept wanting more and not long after he got drunk off of it and passed out on the ground. O and his men took the stick when it was hot and drilled it into the Cyclop's eye and blinded him. O and his men tied themselves to the bottom of the sheep so the Cyclops couldn't feel them. The Cyclops got mad and ate six of his men. Later he had his men go to check out the island of Circe and 20 of his men got turned into pigs. She turned them back into humans and let them stay there for 1 year.
ReplyDeleteI think O is a very good leader because even though talking to the cyclopse wasn't a good idea he still was the one who had the idea to stay and talk and thought that things could work out for the best. He also comes up with the plan on stabbing the big guy in the eye and also how to get out of the cave once they get the stick in his eye. He deffinatly has supreme pride because while they were leaving the cyclopse island he had to tell the big guy what his real name was. Zeus would not take the ram because it was taken from the cyclopse island and not O's. Giving stuff to people was a custum back then it seemed like. whenever anyone goes anywehre they always give the people letting them in their home something, like saying thankyou.
ReplyDeleteO is a good leader because he usually thinks things through pretty well. He probably shouldn't have talked to the Cyclops and would have had more of his men alive, but he made a small mistake in doing so. He did it for good reason to get supplies, that ended up not working out so well. But he comes up with the idea of sticking the hot stick into his eye which makes the C blind. To escape from the C, O and his men put ram wool on top of them so C thought they were his rams. Zeus refused to take the sacrafice because it was not O's ram. It belonged to the C.
ReplyDeleteHe is a man of many words and keeps everyone in line.. He tells people where to go and what to do. They follow his orders, but sometimes others question him.For example: Eurylochus is upset that Odysseus gets all the glory for everything and stands up to him, but the others follow Odysseus and Eurylochus accepts it. Odysseus does anything someone advises him to do. That's his weakness..It seems he can't make up his own mind(when it comes to the Gods), but he also is very persistent and wants to tell everyone what it is he wants to happen and make it that way.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Zeus rejects Odysseus' sacrifice to let him know that he isn't a God and needs not to believe that he is a "king" to everyone and bring his pride down so he may know that he needs to become worthy of everyone before he assumes that he can just "be" right and worthy.. This is significant because he has so much pride in himself and i believe it will come to slap him in the face.
I also think that Mr O is not a good leader. i believe hes not because he always puts himself and his own needs before others. Most good leaders would care about others before themselves. Although i think he is a bad leader i think he has shown some signs that he will some day be a good leader. Some of the signs was when he worked on devoloping a plan to get them safe, another was when he decided to stab him in the eye with a hot wooden stick and jabbed it.... That was pretty awesome!!
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, Odysseus is not a good leader. He is selfish a and arrogant. He thinks he is the best man ever and he only cares for himself. When he came up with the plan to blind the cyclopes it is not for his men. It is to save himself.
ReplyDeleteThe tragic flaw of Odysseus is his selfishness. He does things for himself and only himself.
I think its significant that Zeus rejects the sacrifice because it shows that it doesnt matter how good the sacrifice is. It was the best ram but it was stolen.
Odysseus isn't a very good leader but he is great at keeping himself safe, but he always doesn't look out for his men. He tries to befriend the Cyclops to get supplies none of his men like the idea, but they do it anyway. During the trip 6 men get killed but Odysseus uses his skills and blinds the Cyclops by getting him drunk and digging his eye out and frees his men. He tells the Cyclops who he is because he thinks he is the best fighter in the world. When he leaves the Cyclops prays to Posiden to bring bad weather and storms on Odysseus.
ReplyDeleteI think Odysseus is a good at sometimes and at other times he is a bad leader. I think this because he gets them out of the cave when they are trapped in the cave. I think he is a bad leader because six of his are dead and because he steals sheep from Cyclopes. The Cyclopes prays for bad weather so that their ships cant make it home and they die. On the way home most of there ships make it Odyssues ship makes it home. Latter Cyclops men get sent to look on the island and get turned into pigs.
ReplyDeleteI think that O is a good leader because he alwasys seems to get out of things and he has the hero qualites of a teacher. He is a clever leader also because when he gets the guy in the cave drunk and stabs him in the eye with a hot wooden stick and burns out his eye and tells him that his name is nobody so he doesn't know who it is.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Od is a ver good leader for his men. For instance it was his idea to stay on the island of cyclopes when all of his men wanted to get out of the cave. Also I think staying on the island with Circe was a very selfish choice he made. He did it because he wanted to live the life of luxury and become her lover. A good leader should consule his crew before making huge chioces. Granted he is good at getting out of tricky situations but they are situations that could have been avoided in the first place if it wasn't for his selfish choices.
ReplyDeleteI think O is a great leader. He has been through hell with his men and he still looks out for the best of them. And when they men got turned into the pigs he said this to Eurylochus "Eurylochus, you can stay here and eat and rink beside the hollow black ship; I must go, however; I cannot forgo a taso so necessary-this I owe" (199) Also in book nine when they were trapped in Cyclops cave he still though of an idea to get out. No matter how much he was scared. He still had to step up and be the leader for his men. But also one of his flaws is his not thinking right away. After he got away from Cyclops he just had to get the last word in no matter what and then he got in trouble. Also when he was talking to Hermes, he didn't really think about the outcome of the situation he just did it. Yes, he was trying to save his men, but he didn't think about all the possibilties that lied ahead. Danny pretty much got it on the spot I think. It wasn't his ram. He stole it. So he wasn't really trying to sacrifice it he just wanted to get out of trouble. But he got in trouble in the first place because he stole it. Pretty much it's give and take in this book. O isn't really giving a lot. He is mostly taking and getting from other people. And when he does get stuff from people it usually ends up getting him in trouble. Like with the sack of wind. Because he got it his men got mad because O got everything and they got nothing. So they opened up and they got lost at sea again. Also when he saved his men lives. He got the herb to save them, but at the same time they stayed a year and then they have to go to Hades and sacifrice a lamb. If he didn't have to go and see Cyclops to get stuff from him because he was a geust and they would have just gone they wouldn't have lost men and gotten into such a big mess.
ReplyDeleteI think that big O is a bad leader.
ReplyDeleteHe ony looks out for himself. he lets all his men get killed.
His plans never work out and he ends up losing his men
Like when he tries to talk to the cyclopes he loses six men.
He also takes them to circle where some of his men get turned into pigs.
thats y i think that Big O is a bad leader.
O is just out to get goods and riches from people. He stole the ram and is now trying to sacrafice it to Zues. He doesn't accept it because it isn't his ram.
ReplyDeleteHe is very gredy and is just out to help himself and get more riches for himself. His selfishness is what keeps getting them in truble and gets his men killed
Odysseus isn't the best of leaders. He is more of a person that would but himself in front of others, and so far has lost a couple of his men. Odysseus's biggest flaw i would have to say is his selfishness and his lack of actually being a leader. It was significant that Zeus rejected the sacrifice because it showed that something that good wasn't worth it.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus is not a good leader at all. in some ways maybe, but mostly not. He basically looks out for himself and not for his men. a leader is supposed to put their men first. he makes decisions without asking what his men want to do. He wants to get supplies for the rest of his trip but his men doesn't want to but they follow him anyways because they think he is a good leader. he wants to live the riches and wealthiness of life. He is very selfish. I think he deserves some of what he gets.
ReplyDeleteI think Odysseus is an okay leader, but could definitely be better. He seems to think of himself before his men a lot of the time. For instance, each time Odysseus and his crew land on a new island, Odysseus sends out scouts into the unknown areas to detect any suspicious or evil activity. However, most of the time, he, himself does not risk his life to do this, but risks his mens' lives for them.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus has at least one major flaw, and this is pride. He is very adept at forming escape plans and taking care of himself. However, with each of his victories, it seems as though he does something to cancel out his victory and land him back in misery. For example, when Odysseus and his men escape the Cyclops Polyphemus. This was a big victory for Odysseus to save his few men and himself. But once he and his men are safely back on his ship and sailing away but still within shouting distance of the Cyclop's cave, Odysseus shouts to Polyphemus and tells him his real name. This was a dumb move on Odysseus' part because it greatly angers and provokes the cyclops to learn of Odysseus' real name AND that Odysseus and his men had escaped from his cave without him knowing. The cyclops then throws rocks at Odysseus' ships and exclaims that he is going to tell his father, Poseidon, about Odysseus' wrongdoing, and they will all receive their just punishment.
Zeus doesn't accept Odysseus' sacrifice because the animal Odysseus sacrifices is not Odysseus' animal, but a stolen one. Therefore, the sacrifice is unsatisfying and unimpressive to Zeus.
I think the giving and stealing of goods is significant because it shows that there are those who take the things that they want (thieves), and there are those who give goods to the people they believe deserve it(generous).
Book IX is Odysseus' recounting of his conflict with the one-eyed Cyclops, Polyphemus. In Book X, Odysseus relates the story of the death of his men and his encounter with the goddess, Circe. Include both books in your responses to the following questions. Post your responses so everyone can read what you think.
ReplyDeleteIn your opinion, does Odysseus show he is a good and revered leader in this story? Support your ideas with specific examples from both books.
Odysseus is a very good leader. He knows what to do and when to do it. He is a very wise man, although Eurylochus does not believe so. Odysseus forms plans for each of the tests he is put up to and ends up getting out of these tests. Although, not all men were saved, he still showed leadership in taking charge and forming what they were to do and how to do it. Eurylochus disagreeing with Odysseus' views and leadership states, "My sorry friends, where are we heading now? Why court catastrophe in Circe's house? She'll turn us into lions, wolves, or hogs-- and we'll be forced to guard her massive halls. So did the Cyclops catch and trap our friends-- then, too, the rash Odysseus was with them. They, too, died through the madness of this man" (205). At this Odysseus thought to kill him, but knew he was his kin by marriage so he did not.
Aristotle defines "hamartia" as a "fatal flaw" (see the Tragic Man in your purple packet). According to Aristotle, the most common tragic flaw is "supreme pride" ("hubris"). What is the tragic flaw (or flaws)of Odysseus, in your opinion? Support this with specific examples from the Mandelbaum translation.
You could say that he has supreme pride. Odysseus stands up when he gets on the ship and shows that he has a lot of pride by introducing himself as if he should be treated any better than the rest. He is a good leader, has too much pride in his accomplishments and who he is. (This will get him into a lot of trouble.) Also, he does have a belief in his own freedom. He did not kill the cattle for example, his men did. He wants his right to freedom and to go back to his home, wife, and family. He obviously has a capacity for suffering if he is going through these tests and in book X realizing that before he can go home he has to go to Hades first. Also, we have not gotten to his flashbacks that have lead u to his being stranded with Calypso. Vigorous protest is a yes also. He is against his being on the island and in general away from home. One flaw he has too is the one of infidelity. I mean yes he is away from his wife, but I believe he should remain faithful anyway.
Why is it significant that Zeus rejects the sacrifice of the best ram by Odysseus at the end of Book IX? (Consider the events of Book X)
"..Zeus, lord of all; for him I roasted thighs. But he did not accept the sacrifice: instead his mind was set-- he meant to wreck all of my sturdy ships and faithful friends" (187). I think it is significant because it foreshadows what is to come. Odysseus' adventure is not yet over then. The gods had a plan set for him, and he would have to struggle for what his men did. He would eventually make it back. That is if he has the will power to do so. It is only struggle by struggle holding him back.
Note the frequent mention of the giving or the confiscating of goods and riches. Why do you think this is significant?
It shows the power Odysseus has. He was once a king ans has great skills in almost everything that is needed. He knows how to take care of himself and others like one would during a war. (He is a great leader.)
I think that Odysseus is an awful leader. While he is good at looking after himself and making sure that things work out in his favor, he does very little to help his men. (Note the number of men who die while in the Cyclops' cave, deaths that could have easily been prevented by not being greedy and keeping out of the cave; also when he sends his men off to search the land by themselves,while any good leader would ave gone with them resulting in them being cursed by Circe and turned in to pigs) He also is prideful and arrogant, when he is leaving the cyclops' cave, instead of taking his men and crew and leaving in peace, he calls out his name, so as to mock the cyclops. Another example of Odysseus showing poor leadership skills is at the beginning of his tale when he and his men conquer the Ciconians. Following the conquer, instead of leaving like any inteligent leader would, he and his men linger, taking their share of wine, riches, and women (hmm...seems to me a good leader would stay faithful to his wife)
ReplyDeleteEventually the Ciconians get sick of Odysseus and his men and call upon their neighbors for help, who then promptly attack Odysseus and his men killing '6 from every ship.' Once again lets hear a round of applause for Odysseus and his lovely leadership.
As for the sacrifice I think this is significant in many ways. first of all Why would Zeus accept a sacrifice that Odysseus stole? He took greedily and haughtily from the cyclops, and the sacrifice seems to be his way of proving that he is superior, I see no reason that Zeus would accept it. Secondly, I agree with Jordin, I think that it is a foreshaddowing that his journey is not yet over and that he has much left to achieve before he may go home.
All in all, Odysseus is an awful leader.
I think O is a good leader. Others may say not because he looks out for himself first. Great leaders know how to lead themselves before they lead others. You have to learn how to lead yourself and O does that. He helps his mother when the suitors are trying to take over he knows that that is wrong and doesnt like it. He wants to find his dad and leaves to go lead himself and do what he wants then he starts to lead others. Him and his mean sail to the land Cyclopes. They come to a cave with fruit and other food. O goes and tries to snatch some food but Cyclopes comes back. O then gave the Cyclopes good wine and he wanted a lot so he gave him so much he got drunk and as he was drunk O stabbed Cyclopes in his one eye. O was the hero there and a great leader. Something interesting O also did to lead his men was that he tied them to the bottom of the sheep in the cave and when Cyclopes got up he let out his sheep and O and his men got away. O knows what to do whenever something comes about. He has plans for what to do with every test he faces. O really takes care of all of his men. When he is tired and weak he still fights for his men and knows what to do.
ReplyDeletei bleieve he is a good leader but usually his men dont look out after themselves. one man can only do so much. He knows what needs to be done and he does them, without odysseus his men never would have made it this far. odysseus' flaw in book nine is when he shouts his name out to the cyclops.Even though he is being helped by the gods doesnt mean all of them approve of this like zeus and poisedon and this is shown by the stolen ram to zeus and poisedons storms
ReplyDeleteTo me, O is a pretty decent leader. Sure 2 of his men get eaten but he devises a "fail safe" plan to defeat Polyphemus. His plan is to take a wooden staff and jab it into Polyphemus' eyes. The only problem is Polyphemus probably won't like the idea of losing his eyes. So O , being the sly devil he is, gets Polyphemus drunk off some wine that he had on ther ship and when P is passed out, he can gouge his eyes out! The plan is a success and O and his men haul butt off the island with all of P's sheep. P gets angry and calls upon his father Posseidon to cause some trouble form O and his men... Uh oh!
ReplyDeletei think o is a good leader because he had to think of a good plan to escape from calypso. if he wasn't a good leader then he wouldn't have even tried to think of a plan to get out of there. he could also be a bad leader because he let all of his men get killed. and after he left calypso's he pretty much left his men there to die.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus truly is a good leader and loves his men. He wants to lead them safely home. However, he isn't entirely "revered". Eurylochus, one of his men, shows complete lack of faith and bashes Odysseus not only to his face, but in the presence of all the other men. At the same time, he is highly esteemed because of his intelligence, strength, and valiance. However, I am not completely certain that he makes the best choices in all situations. When his raft, having left Calypso's island, was destroyed and he was thrown into the sea, despite what Ino told him, he ignored her instructions thinking she was trying to take advantage of him like many of the other gods. Because of this, he ignores what she said at first and fails, realizing his idiocy. This is a tragic flaw indeed, and he tends to make these mistakes on some scale in almost every book. This flaw showcases Aristotle's definition of hubris, because it seems like Odysseus always has to do some heroic thing every time something happens. Obviously, he is the hero so such is expected, but sometimes with him it is hard to distinguish the "doing the best for my men" from the "doing the best for myself".
ReplyDeleteThe significance of Zeus rejecting Odysseus' sacrifice is that it shows Zeus' intense anger towards Odysseus. Part of this may be because it was a stolen ram that was taken from Polyphemus, who, as was stated in book IX was firmly against the Olympian gods.
More on the subject of Odysseus' pride, his thievery is unrivaled. He is constantly proving himself a master theif and it isn't hard to tell that many of his riches he has gained have been through stealing. The significance of this is that it shows the different side of Odysseus as well. Obviously in that day and age, the spoils go to the victor, but he also has a curious side despite his desires to plunder. In Book IX, he waits for the cyclops to return rather than just stealing the goods and running. This shows either a sense of pride or a sense of curiosity, as previously mentioned. It is hard to determine his reasoning for staying beyond simple curiosity except for one possibility that comes to mind: does he want to see what he's up against and potentially conquer?
I think that Odysseus is a good leader because when the cyclops had them trapped in the cave he used his head and came up with plan to help them get out ff the cave from the cyclops. What Odysseus does to get away is to burn the end of stick. then get the cyclops drunk. and before the cyclops falls asleep because he is completely drunk he asks Odysseus his name. Odysseus says "Nobody" and than the cyclops falls asleep and that is when Odysseus and his men get the stick hot at end and jab his eye. Which is clever because when the people come to ask him who jabbed a stick in his eye he can only answer "nobody" so they have not a single idea on who did it. Odysseus stole the sheep from Cyclops to got out of the cave. Then the Cyclops prayed Poseiden to make the weather bad for Odysseus.
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